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Sykonyx
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 Post subject: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:14 am 
Hi guys, i just want to put a little idea forward about the possibility of putting a raid team together made up of people from the guild (staying within the guild of course).

First and foremost i want to make sure anyone reading this is aware that The Elders is not and never will be a raiding guild, but we could be a guild that raids on occasion.

I have managed to get my Paladin tank up to level 85, as of today an item level of 362 (mostly thanks to the efforts of the guild, thanks guys ) and i am very much wanting to start raiding.... BUT... I would like to keep it in line with the ethos of the guild meaning no pressure, no huge commitments and most importantly.. NO drama.

We have been into several current content raids thus far with mixed results, we downed the first boss in Baradin Hold, survived the trash in firelands, and wiped many many times on Magmaw in Black wing Descent.

I was thinking it would be nice to maybe get a list of people/characters that would be interested in setting up a raiding team, we can arrange times to suit everyones schedules as most of us have work/spouses/partners to consider.

Progress will be undoubtedly slow but it could be fun. All i would ask of the people who may like to join the team is that they gear up enough for raids (we can work on that as a team) and do a little reading on the bosses we are going to be facing.

I myself have never raided current content (only old content that can be soloed at 85) except with you guys and feel that because i am not "Uber leet" i miss out on a huge portion of the game as i dont feel comfortable raiding with strangers, so if you feel the same way this could be a good oppurtunity to experience current content raids.

I would love to hear your opinions on this or any ideas/suggestions.

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Tashna
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:35 am 
im always game for trying .

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Tobin
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:17 am 
I enjoy the odd retro raid quite a lot, but that's about the speed at which I want to see raid content these days. I joined the Elders because I'd decided to stop raiding current content. It took too much time to do it properly, and I don't really want to do it unless I'm doing it properly.

Best of luck with it though.

Out of curiosity Syk, how far have you got soloing old raid content? I vaguely remember you blazing your way through Molten Core but that's about it.

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Sykonyx
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:04 pm 
I knew you would be up for it Tashna/Ginol :D

I totally understand your reasoning Tobin, i know a lot of guys in the guild won't fancy current raids which is cool, i still plan on running the odd retro raid too :D
Like i say, it's not something i expect most to be interested in but there are a few who seem to fancy it.

With regards to old raid content yes i have done Molten Core solo on a few occasions, i am able to solo most of Kara too with exception of the chess event (managed it with 3 people 2 weeks ago), i can solo most BC and Vanilla content apart from those with the boss mechanics that prevent it being soloed. Back when i first dinged 80 on my human Paladin in wrath days i (with not great gear) managed to solo some dungeons such as The nexus, always enjoyed solo play but since joining you guys i prefer to do these things with a team.

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Vanija
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:47 pm 
I'm up for it - but can't really commit too much time to it (....the original reason why I joined the Elders :wink: )

Currently ilvl 346 geared and knocking of rust from the old healing reflexes (....you've seen my post you already know it...)

I probably won't be able to do more than 1-2 evenings a week and will have a hard time committing to anything more than sporadic questing/afk crafting before 21:00 server time (oh, and I have some days that work better than others and saturdays are always a no-go for me....but more on that if/when we get to finding a time).

TL:DR - I'm interested but my play-time may limit my availability


Edit: And why the heck is my profile picture of a male Sin'Dorei......?

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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:25 pm 
As I said on facebook, I'm in. Just as long as we keep it in the Elders spirit. :) But I won't be able to say a specific day in the week I will always be available.

Talking about retro raid, I hade a great time when Zyraya (haven't seen him in quite a while) was guiding us through some of the old content. Maybe something we also can do once in a while, if people are intrested.


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Nikina
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:19 pm 
My thoughts are similair to Tobins with regards to end game raids. I've played this game 6 years and probably spent 4 years of it raiding so the Elders is my escape from it all, I have no wish to do it again.

Sometimes I do miss raiding, the ''banter' on voice coms, the tactics, the thrill of getting the boss down for the first time etc, but then I give myself a reality check and remember the farming for mats, the raid schedules, the frustrations of some players not coming to a raid prepared, the drama etc

good luck with the venture Syk, but it isn't for me, also at the back of my mind is from past experience (I have witnessed this 6 or 7 times in guilds I've been in) when a casual/social guild starts doing raids it quite often leads to a break up of the guild.

I'd guess that wouldn't be the case with this guild, because in my opinion it is unique

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Sykonyx
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:04 am 
Yeah i am the same about not being able to commit to a certain day each week as my shifts change every week, i guess we would just arrange times and dates between us each time.

I know that the idea of current content raiding is out of the question for some people which is cool, this is hopefully just going to be a small group who may fancy trying it, if it doesn't work out then no tears :)

I sincereley doubt it would have any negative impact on the guild as i mentioned in my first post the raids would be kept within the ethos of the guild, no pressure and no drama.

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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:07 am 
I'll comment in two portions, starting with people's worries and ending with my thoughts on the raiding team.

I can't count how many times I've heard stories about raiding being the demise of guilds which used to be wonderful. I can promise you, that will never happen in the Elders. Some enjoy dungeoning, and yet we're not a dungeoning guild. Some enjoy PvP, yet we are not a PvP guild. Some enjoy raiding, and yet we're not a raiding guild. Just like a family, members have different interests. But just because mom enjoys knitting, doesn't mean dad has to knit. Just because Billy plays with his cars, doesn't mean Lucy has to. And yet the whole family lives in harmony under one roof and share their lives with one another. We can too. Guild chat bringing us all together to enjoy friendly prattle on the side.

As always, regardless of what's going on. Be it a party, HC, raid or whatever - people should never be pressured to go to these things. Folks should never feel guilty or left out if they don't. First and foremost this is a guild about relaxation and doing whatever you feel like on that given night. Even if you've signed up for a raid and come online to say "Listen, I've had a rough day, mind if I skip?", that should be ok too. Our purpose is to allow everyone to feel like they can play the game according to their RL needs and feel relaxed logging on.

So if anyone felt even an inkling of dread from this topic, please don't!

As for the raiding team, I LOVE the idea and am definitely signing up! I've never gotten to experience raids much when they were "current" and it's always been a matter of going to easier raids. Thus, I've never experienced having really good gear either.

However, I'd like us to discuss some basic rules, not only to calm the worries of some, but to also ensure that it never gets out of hand.

Item Level
Sykonyx's only requirement was that your item level is high enough. (perhaps we could agree on a required number before you can join the raiding team?) I think think this is a very logical and fair requirement that doesn't demand too much of the player since item level grows naturally anyhow. Going into a raid with low gear won't get you past the first mobs and wiping 30 times to try the first boss is not fun in the long run, so I fully agree with this requirement.

Attendance
If you join the raiding team, it should not obligate you in any way, in fact being part of the raiding team should only be your way of indicating that "Hey, yeah I'd like to raid if I'm up for it!". Note the "if I'm up for it" part. Correct me if I'm wrong Syko, but I'm assuming that the purpose of making this team was to clarify who wants to raid and who doesn't. This makes life for you easier since you know immediately who to invite, and makes life easier for the non raiders as well since then they don't have to keep declining.

- If you accept a calendar invitation to a raid, it's assumed you're coming because signing up is also an action of "reserving a spot". *
- If you sign up tentatively, (which is something I'll probably do because I have a horrible memory and will most likely forget to come to some raids), then that's basically saying that you're interested in coming if there's room, if you're around and if you're up for it.

* However, even those who accepted and reserved a spot should not feel bad if they have to cancel due to a rough day.

Then to touch upon some things that Nikina mentioned:

Farming for Mats
I'm assuming that this means farming for mats needed for potions and enchants? If so, this should never be obligatory, instead something people are free to do if they feel like it. And besides success is not the main point of the raids, having fun is. We never want to turn this into work!

Raid schedules
I think the pace that we've had so far has been quite comfy, this weekly raid thing.

Frustration of some people coming unprepared
By this I assume is meant arriving without food and potions? Again, I think Syko's only request of sufficient item level is good enough and if anyone wants to bring food and potions, that's great. But not obligatory!

Drama
So far what I've seen in the raids we've done is a really lovely attitude. It's all good fun and people are extremely patient. When we've wiped so many times that people are on the verge of frustration, we've usually quit trying. I think we all agree that drama is not something we want.

My only raiding experience (aside what we've done with the guild) was when I used to go to raids with a raiding group once in a while, so it could be that some of you experienced ex-raiders out there are shaking your heads and saying to yourselves "No no no, it's never going to work, they won't get far". So if you have any suggestions on how we could make this work so that it supports both a somewhat realistic attempt at getting somewhere in raids as well as the guild ethos, please give us your ideas!

For those of you who have already signed up for the raid team, how do you feel about the things I said?

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Tashna
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:54 am 
couldnt agree more Bram.

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Sykonyx
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:34 pm 
Brambs you summed up everything perfectly! Thanks.

This raiding team isn't going to be in any way hardcore, it is meant to be fun which is the purpose of playing a game in my opinion, it shouldn't feel like work (as many of us use the game to escape from work after a hard day)

Also Brambs point about non-raiders always having to click decline on invites, i guess there could be a few who feel annoyed at the constant invites to raids that they have no interest in, this will help us filter those who want to and don't want to raid.

Basically the things i would like to beg of those interested in joining are as follows.

1. raise your item level to a decent level, maybe 355 to start with? We can help people get geared up along the way, don't feel that you need to do it alone.

2. If you have the gold for it, come prepared with buff food and flasks/potions etc for yourself, if you are low on gold then that is fine, just bring what you can, if anyone is feeling generous feel free to loan someone a flask or potion.

3. Signing up is optional, if you cannot make the raid on the day/time it is set for don't be afraid to let us know, we won't be upset, we will try and reschedule for a time that suits all, if you sign up and for whatever reason cannot make it (working late, children unwell etc) then no problems, if you can maybe pop a message on facebook or quickly log in to say you can't make it that would be appreciated but not mandatory, there will be no hard feelings.

I will just take this chance to say that I myself am a complete "NOOB" when it comes to raiding, the only real raids i have done have been with you guys and my raid leadership is questionable therefore i would appreciate any help and or advice that you guys can give. Hopefully we can learn together :D

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Zamarane
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:51 pm 
Nikina wrote:
... remember the farming for mats, the raid schedules, the frustrations of some players not coming to a raid prepared, the drama etc

*grin* I remember one of the farming raids we had during the TBC era while I was in Entropy, a casual yet progression oriented raiding guild. We slapped together a team of two tanks, two healers and six dps and headed to Karazhan to get some gear for fresh raiders. After few pulls before Attumen, I got a whisper from healers' leader asking me to switch to my holy paladin backing her because she felt she had problems with healing and feared her performance was not up to par. That was unusual since she was a very skillful and experienced player. She said she had her six months old daughter in her lap while raiding and couldn't hold her, use the mouse and the keyboard at the same time.

She said she couldn't hand the baby over to her husband because he was busy farming mats for flasks, mana potions, buff food and weapon enchants for our progression 25 men raid in SSC one day later. (In TBC, healers and some dps chained mana pots every two minutes during progression raids.)

Behold the "magic" of progression raiding. :mrgreen:

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Tobin
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:35 pm 
I'd have thought a small child would make an excellent healer.

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Alethiar
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:58 pm 
When I first saw this post, I have to admit to being a little concerned. I've been in guilds where the notion of raiding was raised, and I will echo the comments about it being the death knell of those same guilds. It is very, very hard to change the direction a guild is going, without there being casualties along the way. That said, when I read Brambline's post, I was definitely reassured. I think if any guild is capable of supporting a casual raid team, without impacting on its non-raiding members, it's The Elders.

I have done some limited raiding in ICC, (with Valiera) while the content was still current, so know the demands can be pretty high. I also know that I had to stop doing it because of the demands it was placing on my time, and the effect that had on my relationship.

If The Elders are able to move ahead with a raid team that can operate in the relaxed and no-pressure way that is being discussed, then I am definitely interested. I miss the challenge of raiding, and it would be great to be able to experience current raid content with a nice group.

So, I will tentatively throw my hat in the ring though, like others, I can't be too sure about how much time I will be able to dedicate to this venture. It may also be that I'm just not cut out for it.

Alethiar is my main, and only has healing specs (Holy/Disc), though I have never done any raid healing with her. As any of you who have read my blog posts will realise, I also have serious confidence issues when it comes to group play, and I hate to be the weak link in the chain. I will certainly do the best I can though, as I cry a little inside every time a party member dies.

Anyway! Enough prattle for now. I'm interested in tagging along, at least to see how it goes. I suspect there will be no shortage of healers anyway, what with the number of priests we have in the guild!

Thanks for organising this, Sykonyx, and thanks to Brambline for putting any concerns to rest.



Sykonyx
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 Post subject: Re: The Elders Raiding team
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:18 pm 
Thanks for your comments Alethiar :) i understand some people being concerned how raiding can damage a guild but i agree with what Nikina said in an earlier post, The Elders is unique as we are all mature and aware of each others real life commitments, if this Raiding team started to have any negative impact on the guild it would stop right away but i doubt it would be an issue.

As for not feeling confident i know exactly how you feel, i simply refuse to ever Tank a PUG group as i am quite a softy and harsh criticism really gets to me, thats why i only ever Tank with the guild as it's a no blame enviroment. Just think of it as a chance to learn/re-learn to play your class to its limit, don't cry if we die, my mantra is "Wiping is fun", good chance to re-evaluate the fight, rebuff etc and go in better prepared than last time. No one will be blamed for a wipe nor will anyone harshly criticise any one else, positive hints and tips are much better than yelling at someone :D

On another note i am pleastantly suprised how many seem interested in joining the team, a few more and we should be set to start helping each other gear up :D

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