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Damkina
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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:38 pm 
This time stuff is confusing :lol:

I'm going to be late. I'm still at work :cry: . But I'm happy to help some other time if you can't get into an instance tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:32 pm 
Naturesoul: Any time you feel like doing a dungeon and I happen to be online, I'll be happy to come along. You'll soon see that I am fully capable of making an even bigger fool of myself than you do *grins*. Personally I don't take things too seriously in dungeons although I do try not to be a hindrance to others. Some folks like to take things slowly and explore the area, some like to roleplay through the whole thing whilst others want things to be fast, efficient and to the point. I'm really quite happy to join in on any of the above styles.



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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:55 am 
Hi Brambline.
Thank you for that! I have now tried my first dungeon - Sunken Temple - together with Tarabor and Oakenwing, and that was so FUN! :) I really liked it, and it was a completely different experience than the one I had with "strangers", where I made every mistake there is to make (and after a while the group members decided to leave me...haha!).

So now I've learned that a group should consist of one tank, not two, because the healer can't take care of more than one. But I still don't know what a DPS is supposed to do? Could someone explain? (Yes, I've read thorugh many guides but I still am uncertain...) And another question: What is the best role in a group for a druid feral?

Naturesoul



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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:48 pm 
I'm happy you enjoyed our run in Sunken Temple. I was impressed what we managed to do with just us three. :D
It did take some planning with the dragonkins but you guys learn really fast! Even got an introduction to marking mobs. Orange circle is always mentioned as Jaffacake..nah that's just me :wink:

In a five man group there's usually a tank, a healer and three dps. The tank isn't there do alot of damage but to make the mobs angry enough at him to just attack him and noone else. When they do the tank then has something called "aggro" (I guess it's from agrresion or something). To get aggro the tank uses high treath moves. The DPS is there to do the damage and kill the mobs without taking the mobs attention from the tank. If the dps gets this "aggro" they usually have moves to reduce their threat against the mob (if you get attention from a mob from the tank do not run away from the tank but towards him so he can pick the mob off of you). The healer is there to keep everyone alive and will also have to make sure they don't get "aggro". Heals on fellow players generate threat from mobs as well.

Did this make any sense? It's kind of the short version I think.

All classes and roles in a group can be called upon to help crowd control mobs. Using stuns, sheep (mage), cyclone/sleep (druid) etc.

As for feral both they do the role as dps (kitty) or tank(bear) quite well. It's just picking what you like to do really :)


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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:52 pm 
So glad to hear you had a better experience this time! There are two different mental perspectives to doing dungeons (for me at least) And when you embark on one, you have to psyche yourself into the right mode so you won't become disappointed.

Doing dungeons with friends and sympatico guild members:
Usually these are easy going and friendly events where mistakes are shrugged off and the main point is to enjoy each other's company and maybe get some experience, some quests done and perhaps a nice trinket or two along the way. However if one doesn't get anything "material" it usually doesn't seem to matter since everyone's just gone to have a nice time. This is the reason higher level guildmates or friends will often offer to "boost" you, which will allow you to go in just the two of you and usually your friend will do all the killing since they can just wipe out the mobs with a flick of their wrist. You won't get very much XP this way, but at least you'll get your quests done and more loot than you can possibly carry.

Doing dungeons with random people (PUGs)
The mentality here is that you're going in for the loot, XP and your quests mainly, without any rosy expectations of having "a nice time with nice people". Most times folks will be nice and civil, but more often than not you will also encounter very nasty players who will give you a hard time if you don't do everything perfectly. But over time, you will build up a thick skin against these situations and shrug them off (at least most times). Besides, if you encounter a mean player, you can at least put them on ignore so you will never have to encounter them again., That's what I do and it's what gets me through these episodes emotionally, knowing that I have the power to block my playing experience from every having to see them again, thus "cleansing" the PUG player pool gradually, leading to a more and more pleasant PUG experience.

I enjoy both kinds of dungeon runs and they suit different moods. Sometimes I'm in a social mood and feel like helping out, feel like having a relaxed guild run without any hurries or stress. And then sometimes I feel like just grinding and achieving stuff in the game and don't really feel like socializing or being patient :). It all depends. Most times I'm able to switch if needed though, so never feel shy about asking.

About the roles in a dungeon run:

It always consists of the following formula:

1 x TANK
- should be the one taking the majority of the damage to allow everyone else to do their jobs in peace
- is not expected to do much damage, but instead keeps the baddies focused on them by taunting them repeatedly
- Is the one who goes first in the group and is also the one that does the pulling. Most times tanks have a plan as to where they want to pull the mobs (the monsters etc) to and will often say something like "corner pull" if the mob has a mage or other ranged type in it who refused to "run to the tank" for a fight. The tank will then catch their attention and then duck quickly behind a corner or wall so that the complete mob is forced to run up to get access, mages included.

1 x HEALER
- Is responsible for all healing but should allowed to be mostly focusing on healing the tank.
- Healers are very vulnerable so they need to stay far away from the fighting action is going on. The closer they are, the more their healing aggravates the mobs

3 x DPS
- Tanks do very little damage and healers shouldn't be doing any damage, so that's why DPS are needed. DPS - Damange Per Second says it all, they should do as much damage in the shortest time possible so that battles aren't long drawn (there is only so much mana that the healer has for healing before running out). If your druid is specced a feral, you are then a DPS.
- DPS are by far, the most commonly played type due to the fact that playing a DPS is relatively easy compared to being a tank or healer, who have much more responsibility and pressure. This unfortunately makes DPS class folks easy to replace and dispensable. This is probably why you were kicked out of the group so easily, because they thought: "This person is not doing enough damage which is making battles last too long, let's just replace them quickly and we'll get through this dungeon much faster)
- DPS are expected to do a ton of damage, but they are also expected to be careful with how much they aggrivate the mobs so that the mobs don't start attacking them instead of the tank. You will notice that on a mobs status bar, there is a percentage and color, this is showing how much aggro you are causing. If it's at 0% you are causing no aggro, if it's at 100% the mob has switched it's full focus on to you. For this reason, it's very important to always attack the same mob that the tank is working on, because that mob is being constantly taunted by the tank and thus, allowing you to blast away with your damage without fear of being noticed by the mob.
- Sometimes when fighting bosses, small easy to kill "adds" will come rushing in and will attack various team members, it's usually the DPS job to kill them off and let the tank concentrate on the boss itself.
- Related to this is also keeping an eye on the healer. It helps the tank if you make sure the healer is kept safe from any stray mobs, by attacking them and luring them to the tank.
- Generally, whenever a mob focuses on you, the best thing you can do is rush towards the tank to get in their "taunting range" so that their taunt will remove the mob off your back.
- Generally, DPS should never pull mobs first. It's the tank's job.

Hope this helps to explain a bit!



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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:53 pm 
Ah Brambline you had the long version :D


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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:54 pm 
Ah Damkina responded already while I was writing it seems, but as you can see we both say pretty much the same thing :-).



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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:48 pm 
What perfect explanations you have written!! You two should maybe write some beginner's guide?? :D

Now I have got answers for all my questions and more!

As Naturesoul would have put it:
"I salute you, wanderers!"

Best regards
Naturesoul



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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:23 am 
Yes - the holy trinity of Tank, Healer and DPS.....

If you decide to dabble more into dungeon runs (and I can only encourage it as I myself find dungeons fantastic), there are a few other things that might help you. From the above threads I figure you are mostly nto DPS at the moment, so I'll share my experiences with you in that regards.

One of the mainstream thoughts in groups is this:
If the tank dies it's the healers fault
If the healer dies it's the tanks fault
If the DPS dies it's the DPSs' own fault

The thought behind this is (as Bramline stated), the Healer should focus on keeping the Tank alive - the Tank should not let any enemies slip past. This doesn't mean that the healer won't do his/her best to keep the DPS alive.....it just means, that should a DPS die, there will still be 2 left, and in the most dire of situations, a tank/healer combo can (if played well enough) kill of leftover enemies with all DPS dead......but it takes forever.

Luckily the DPS are not at the entire bottom of the healers priority list - combat pets (hunter pets, DK pets, warlock pets.....) are at the rock bottom of the list.

But keep it in mind so you are ready to move out of Area Effect Damage (AoE) and do not pull the enemies attention off of the Tank. As you are a Druid you have a powerful tool at you disposal to make your Healers life a lot easier. If you take damage while the healer is occupied elsewhere you can shift into caster form and heal yourself.....you can also do this to help the healer if he/she is out of mana, stunned/silenced, killed - this is one of the tradeskills of an excellent druid.

Likewise any healer would love you for shifting to casterform and throwing Innervate on them during drawn-out fights.

Another thing to keep in mind is that even though you are DPS, you have a lot of utility at your disposal. You should ALWAYS cast your blessings on your teammates (Gift of Nature). Do it when you enter the dungeon and refresh it whenever necessary.
As a Druid you can remove poisons and curses - be ready to do this to help the healer, he/she will more often than not love you for it as every ill effect that is dispelled early means he/she has to heal less (which saves mana.......and healers LOVE their mana)

Also you should (if at all possible) use consumables. You can eat food, that gives a boost to you strenght/agility/stamina and have potions to do the same. The further along in content you get the more important it is......and NOT using consumables at max level is almost considered an expression of indifference (as lacking enchants on gear is).
So use appropriate food/potions/enchants........don't neglect it, but also don't overdo it as that will quickly become too expensive :wink:

If you decide to follow the Kitty DPS route, I found this over at The Fluid Druid http://thefluiddruid.wordpress.com

The Panther Creed.

I am a panther of death. Fear me.

I am a skilled and experienced fighter, trained to defeat my enemy.

If I fight alone, I am weak. If the enemy fights alone, he is weak. With my pack, I am strong. I can overcome all challenges with the support of my pack.

I shall provide my companions with the blessings of the jungle, to enhance their skills in the ways of war.

I shall not rely on my companions to provide enhancing sustenance; I shall provide my own, as I am self-reliant.

I shall follow my commander’s orders, even if they leave me no personal glory. There is no glory in defeat.

I shall always attack my enemy from behind, as the deadliest attack is the one unseen.

I shall let those with plate armor or bear posterior absorb the enemy’s blows. I will NEVER draw the enemy’s attention, as I fly far and crumple well when kicked.

I shall intimidate the enemy with my roars, so that my attacks strike deep.

I shall endeavor to keep the enemy bleeding and crippled, watching as his life slowly drains away.

I shall illuminate the enemy with faeries’ fire, so that my companions’ accuracy will be aided.

I shall glyph for Savage Roar, Rip, and Shred, so that my voice be stronger, and my opponent’s bleeding be torrential.

I shall remain aware of the conditions of my pack, so that I may restore a companion’s life or energy at a moment’s notice.

I shall remain aware of the battlefield. I will ALWAYS get out of the fire, as singed fur smells awful, and greatly displeases our clergy.

If our enemy defeats us, I will examine my equipment and tactics, to seek to improve my contribution to the pack. If we defeat our enemy, I will praise my companions for their efforts. I shall not revel in personal glory.

Above all, I am a Guardian of Cenarius, and a protector of the peoples of the Alliance. As I protect them, so does Elune protect me.

I AM…a panther of death. Fear me.

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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:36 pm 
Hi!
I'm amazed about how much knowledge there is in this!! Many thanks for your thoughts Vanija.
Naturesoul


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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:56 pm 
Vanija wrote:
One of the mainstream thoughts in groups is this:
If the tank dies it's the healers fault
If the healer dies it's the tanks fault
If the DPS dies it's the DPSs' own fault


Hehe I love this part. It's so true isn't it!!


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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:03 pm 
Hi Naturesoul,

I am very happy to help you out too if I am around.  It would be as a boost though as I do not have any characters at your level at the moment.

I do also have a few tips if you are interested.  They are only suggestions and not meant as a criticism or instruction of any sort and I hope that you do not take offence from them – they are not meant to be preachy in any way.  If you like the way you play or what you have chosen fits for an RP reason please, please carry on with that as this is just a game after all.  Having said that, they may help you with your chosen role as a feral – particularly when you are grouping with people you do not know and who might not be as understanding as guild members and other friends.

As has been said by the others, ferals have two main roles (kitty doing damage and bear absorbing damage) and random PUGs are generally going to expect you to focus on those goals.  In that respect I have a few suggestions regarding your gear, talents and glyphs.

First, regarding gear, the two most important statistics for a feral (both bear and cat) are Agility and Stamina and you will not go far wrong if you just ensure that your gear has these stats as high as possible.  Stamina is fairly obvious as it improves your hit points.  This is vital for a bear as he needs that to absorb damage and has inbuilt mechanics to multiply the effect of stamina and talents (heart of the wild) that improve that even further.  It is also useful for a kitty because things will hit you and having more hit points means you stay alive longer to do more damage.  Agility is a great stat for ferals as it translates (all at the same time) into increased armour, dodge and critical strike chance for both bears and cats and for cats it also increases your attack power and so damage.  All that translates in a number of ways to increased survivability and damage, which is what ferals are all about.

Strength is good too because it means added attack power, but agility affects so many statistics at once that are useful for ferals that it is normally the better statistic.  Gear that directly increases attack power, dodge and melee critical chance is good too.

Any gear that improves intelligence, mana, spell power, spirit or spell crit far less useful for a feral as we do not depend on casting spells.  So, if a piece of armour has any spell related statistics you should not normally be using it as a feral.  I noticed from your armoury that you have some gear that boosts your intelligence and spell power.  As I said, if you are happy with that gear for your play style or for RP reasons please do stick with and I am not criticising your choices – but if you want to maximise your feral abilities go Agi and Stam.

The glyph choice is similar – pick those glyphs that improve your feral skills.  So, for example a good choice at your level might be Glyph of Mangle as that improves the damage your mangle does (in both bear and Cat) by 10%.  Your current glyphs improve your spell abilities so are really not that useful for a feral.

Talents are trickier because they are often not so clear cut and are often very much a matter of personal choice.  One thing to understand about the feral tree is that while it has talents that are good for both cats and bears, some are only good for one or another.  You can mix and match, but that can mean that you will not do as much damage when in cat form or be less able to take damage as a bear.  At your level focusing on cat or bear talents is not so important and a mix, which you have gone for, can be a very, very good thing.  Anyway, here are some tips.  Please understand that they are just suggestions to think about and not meant to be critical – plus, as I said, they are only my views and not gospel.

You have 4 out of 5 points in Ferocity and 2 out of 5 in Feral Aggression.  I would put 5/5 in Ferocity and drop Feral Aggression altogether for now as Ferocity is very useful (it allows you to use your bear and cat abilities for longer) while Feral Aggression is arguably less useful and certainly of limited use with only one or two points in it.  It would be better to maximise other talents.

You have only got 3/5 points in Hide of the Wild.  This is a very good talent indeed as it helps you whatever you are doing: it gives you more intelligence if you are casting spells, more stamina if you are in bear form and more damage in cat form.  Personally, I would fill all five points of this talent.

You have taken 3/3 Primal Tenacity.  That talent is mainly useful in PvP, which is great if you do that, because it counters skills that other players are generally more likely to use against you but they are not things that mobs do to you that often.  Nurturing instinct is a good talent but is, again, often more useful in PvP and almost completely useless when soloing.   If you are focusing on levelling and dungeons then they may be better being replaced by other skills.

You have skipped Primal Fury altogether, which is very useful because it allows you to use your cat and bear abilities more often.

Survival of the Fittest is another good talent as it increases all of your statistics (useful for both cat and bear) and it helps your bear abilities a lot.  It may be a good idea to put another point in there to maximise it.

Something to consider may be whether you want to focus on either cat or on bear talents – as I said, that is not really necessary yet but I can give you some tips there if you want.  Focussing on one or the other can have quite dramatic results at higher levels.  For example my druid Alesh is dual specced – one focussing on cat talents and another for bear – and I carry two sets of armour (three if I am PvPing)  - again one for cat and another for bear.  If I wear my bear armour in bear spec I have about 40,000 hit points, over 40% dodge and about 30,000 armour but barely 5,000 attack power and 40% critical chance.  My cat spec and armour halves the hit points but puts my attack power somewhere over 7,000 and critical chance over 50%.  If (unlike me) you are actually any good and have raid armour the effects can be even more dramatic.  If I went into a dungeon in my bear armour and spec and tried to dps I would be torn apart by the abuse from the PUG.

I feel horrible giving advice like that as it can come across as critical and preachy and it is just my humble opinion, so please do not feel offended, please take it or leave it and I hope that I have been of some help.  

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Last edited by Arawn on Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.


Naturesoul
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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:57 pm 
Dear Arawn! Please PLEASE don't feel horrible for your interesting writings!! The more I learn about this game, the more I understand how much there is to it!

I have been wondering about this talent tree, and glyphs, and frankly I have nearly no idea at all about how to use it. Not the statistics either. I read and I read beginner's guides, but they're too general, and I can't really apply them for my own. I have often wished that someone could tell me what to wear and where to put points in the talent tree, and here you have done just that!! I'm amazed and very grateful for this!! Finally I can start to think things through a bit more! :)

And.. I AM a kitty, for some reason I just don't like the bear..

Many thanks for you help!
Naturesoul


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 Post subject: Re: Very new!
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:30 pm 
Hi Naturesoul,

I am glad to have been of some help and /salute to a fellow Cat :D

I think that trying to specialise too much into Cat talents at your level may not be necessary and having a few bear talents as you level up can be very handy as it lets you solo some elite quests that some other classes have to miss or wait around for a group to complete. My bear spec and gear lets me even solo Burning Crusade Heroics and some early Lich King Normal dungeon bosses - that can be handy.

Oh, and do not forget to get some of the early Restoration talents – they are essential and now that you have got to Mangle in the Feral tree you should be getting them:

3/5 Furor (it gives you a chance of automatic energy and rage when you switch forms – you only need 3 points for cat build)
2/2 Improved Mark of the Wild (it gives you + 2% to all your stats and improves your Mark of the Wild buff)
5/5 Naturalist (reduces the cast time of Healing Touch, but most importantly increases all your damage by 10%)
1/1 Omen of clarity (when it procs your next spell or attack is mana/range/energy free)

Here are a few more blogs and guides that you might find interesting. The first gives you an indication of the talents to go for at each level:

Druid leveling guide v. 3.3 (all specs) http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1186&sid=1

Feral Aggression http://feralaggression.wordpress.com/

Leader of the Pack http://l-o-t-p.blogspot.com/

Druid Wiki http://druid.wikispaces.com/

The following guides are more detailed and a bit more technical as they are aimed at Cats at 80 that are gearing up for heroics and raids. A lot of what they say will not apply to you as you will not get some of the most useful damage-dealing skills (like Swipe (Cat) which gives you a lot of AoE damage or Savage Roar that increases all your damage by 30%) until you are in your mid 70s, but they will also give good general pointers.

Cat DPS - by Fanthom http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm ... 8864888005

Kitties For Dummies http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 9854&sid=1

Definitive Cat DPS FAQ http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 2236&sid=1

Elitist Jerks Druid Forums http://elitistjerks.com/f73/

A lot of the above are available on the WoW forums.

And last, but not least, Fluid Druid may have the Panther’s Creed but those of us that have had Kitties since before the Burning Crusade have long taken our inspiration from a very wise Tauren, Alamo, and this is what he says about cats :D :

U NO CAT DURIDS IS VERY STORNG! SUM PEEPS DUNNO Y SO HEAR IS LIST

1) OK now sum durid is cat

2) Cat durid, tehm dosent heel.

3) Cat is for fite

4) Cat durid dosent talk about fite

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/ ... nomeow.jpg

5) when cat durid is FITE do not ask for HEEL and NINIRVATE!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/ ... ervate.jpg

and CAT DURIDS is no spam moonfare! Sum cat durids dosent no wut is uh moonfare!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/ ... onfare.jpg

Most importantly:

DURIDS IS MUST ALWAYZ HALP EECH OTHER:
sumtimes a new durid is need sum halp and advise frum a good durid so u shuld alway halp unother

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/ ... dteech.jpg

Here is ALAMOS COMPLEET DURID INSTURCKSHUN - by Alamo - http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm ... d=15021516

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